The GOAT Principle. So recently I had a look at the… | by Illuminati Ganga Agent 86 | luminasticity | Feb, 2025

So recently I had a look at the original Listicle that everybody loves to hate

I noted several things — such as that Bill Wyman and I evidently have some serious divergences in taste, but I do think we share one thing which is wondering how you can make the decision that someone deserves to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, especially as you get low down on the list.

And I think I have a solution to that nagging problem — based on some thoughts I had in

This relates to Ozzy Osbourne, of whom Wyman said

254. Ozzy Osbourne (2004)

This is a pretty mystifying selection, another pet rock nominee, and another example of the hall’s new celebrity cravenness. Some people liked Sabbath, and you can certainly make the argument that the band’s sludge was pioneering. And just like any front person, Osbourne deserved his second life as a solo artist and, in his case, incomprehensible reality-show star and lovable oaf. But there’s a perennial slam on white rock critics like myself that they are not in tune with black artists, female artists, or whatever else, which is a legitimate concern to some extent and comes with the territory in any case. But if you want to talk about out of touch, consider this: In my many, many years as a writer and editor, nobody — nobody — has ever mentioned Osbourne’s solo work to me. No one’s wanted to review an album or cover a show. No one’s ever said, “Hey, you should hear this track on the new Ozzy album.” I don’t even remember ever reading a review of one of his albums or hearing one of his solo songs played on the radio, and of course none of his albums has ever turned up in the Pazz & Jop poll. It feels like another example of how familiar or cozy names will capture the votes of the voting committee over actual serious artists. (To be clear, we are talking about Osbourne’s solo career; he is already in the hall as part of Black Sabbath.)

first to note, I believe that should be 2024? Vulture?!? C’mon, this is just an example of what you can expect from a company that has refused my repeated suggestions I write some articles for them. And then they pull this! HAH!

At any rate I think he probably is somewhat out of touch, because this is what I said

Ozzy Osbourne

I never hated Ozzy Osbourne, I just hated everyone that loved him. This is different than Foreigner, I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone that loved Foreigner, I’ve known people who appreciated them, who thought they “rocked” that they were cool, but not loved.

People have loved Ozzy Osbourne, people have devoted themselves to him and his life, if the root of the word Fan is Fanatic I’m not sure if Foreigner has ever really had any fans, whereas Ozzy has had millions and in some ways deserved them.

Ozzy is so clearly Good in some ways, and not to my taste.

But even when I say that Ozzy is Good and not to my taste, that’s not really true. He is not to my taste, but in the article “A Useful metric for finding Great Art” it was said that if you can find art that you love that is not to your taste then that argues for the greatness of the art, and Ozzy has been involved with a few things that are not to my taste that I still like, if not love, and that is something to respect.

The salient point there is “People have loved Ozzy Osbourne, people have devoted themselves to him and his life, if the root of the word Fan is Fanatic I’m not sure if Foreigner has ever really had any fans, whereas Ozzy has had millions and in some ways deserved them.”

People have at some point thought Ozzy was the GOAT. Really, at the point when he first went solo and did Crazy Train

and was touring with Randy Rhodes, who wrote the riff to Crazy Train, there were people who would tell me Ozzy was the GOAT. Most of the time those people and I were ready to kill each other. But they would tell me this anyway as we were sitting around in math class with a true believer’s fervor in their wild, stoned eyes.

And this is what I suggest as the minimum standard.

If you can think that someone without severe mental issues can think that this performer or band or whoever was the GOAT, then they can maybe be in the Hall of Fame. It is obviously not adequate, but it locks some people out.

It locks out Foreigner for sure. It locks out Lionel Ritchie.

It does not lock out KISS, curse the luck, but maybe they should be in. Damn them.

Just to be clear — these are the list of artists that I believe would not ever be considered as the GOAT by anyone without pharmaceutical or mental health issues enabling the delusion

Lionel Ritchie

Foreigner

Cher

Bon Jovi

Pat Benatar

The Dave Matthews Band

Sheryl Crow

Gene Vincent

Now that last one, Gene Vincent, is pretty special — this is what Wyman had to say at his entry

169. Gene Vincent (1998)

I find Vincent a bit too fresh-faced and … maybe immature is the word, even on a classic like “Be-Bop-a-Lula.” Not too much of a career besides that song. Vincent was injured in the same car crash that killed Eddie Cochran in 1960. The rest of his career ranged from the uneven to the sad, and he died at 36.

Now the interesting thing about Vincent never being anybody’s GOAT, is that GOAT status is often based on who you were in high school. Lots of people think whoever was the greatest band for them when they were in high school is the GOAT. It’s pretty pathetic.

But Vincent was nobody’s high school greatest because there were so many other great people at that point in time, that if you were going to take a great it would not be Vincent.

So this is my argument — if you want to get into the Hall of Fame it should be reasonable to believe that people have gone around thinking you were the GOAT.

Even though I personally do not believe in such a thing as a GOAT.